Curse

toocooltang · Dec 15, 2009, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by coil

because people like challenges.

instead of bitching that a skill is "too strong" on a forum people are using it to find new, quick, extremely efficient ways to get end chests. some of them dont even care about the chest (which does get annoying at times) and just want a quick completion time.

like its been said before, this is proof of player innovation & progression. add to that static monsters with predictable skills....you know what youll face EVERY time and just have to design a team build around completing these predictable areas with semi predictable spawns.

and if it hurts you so deeply, there is a very simple ai mechanic that can be changed that will kill the 20 minute runs. try to figure it out and send it in to gw support and your name will go down in history as the one who killed the new uwsc forever.

1. If you want a challenge change the meta. You can say the new dayway is a new build, which technically it is but its not a new meta. Dayway along with every other SC build out there is based upon SF. If you want a challenge do it without SF and still try to get a 26 minute time.
2. If a build has SF in it, its not really innovation IMO. Innovation would be the first guild to use COP and SF sins in DOA to clear it in an hour, or trenchway tactics, or the tactics in the 4th room in foundry, or using E/me in UW to solo question portions all those things are innovation. Due to the static meta in PVE there is very little "innovation" just continual refinement of the same builds over and over.

Its all the same stuff over and over, you have an SF tank aggro everything up then you spike, or you have 5,6,7,8 SF sins run around and solo a bunch of stuff, or pair up to work on stuff ingame.

I think the best thing to happen right now ingame, would be make SF unmaintable, then give us a bunch of dartboard changes to random elites and other skills then see what happens. This would basically invalidate all the current builds and tactics, but it would be a challenge to have to redefine tactics and "innovate" new ways to complete things.

reaper with no name · Dec 15, 2009, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Not really. You could just move in groups of 8, killing 8 monsters at the same time. Arcane Echo it if you are afraid of dying. Also, it would make killing bosses like Abaddon, Mallyx, Shiro or Dhuum stupidly easy.

Exactly. And yet it's still more balanced than the current SF.

flapjack · Dec 15, 2009, 11:00 PM // 23:00

First of all I really enjoy thoughtful opinions and genuine suggestions regardless of my personal view. Of course this kind of thread usually degenerates quite quickly into a festival of hate

but no big.

"1. If you want a challenge change the meta. You can say the new dayway is a new build, which technically it is but its not a new meta. Dayway along with every other SC build out there is based upon SF. If you want a challenge do it without SF and still try to get a 26 minute time."

I'm guessing you mean "many" rather than "every" since that would be ridiculous with the 600/smite dominance of faction farming and many other clears and the 1 minute ATFH HM hero build etc. But you are correct that SF builds do use ah.....SF and in that sense they are alike. Now the tactics used by the different secondary's vary a bit but as they are SF then any creativity or skill applied to the organizing or use of the build can be dismissed because we all know that any beginner can run any SF build in any area under any circumstances and be quick and successful

. That is why it is so easy to hop a UW pug and get the chest every time in under 30min right?

"2. If a build has SF in it, its not really innovation IMO. Innovation would be the first guild to use COP and SF sins in DOA to clear it in an hour, or trenchway tactics, or the tactics in the 4th room in foundry, or using E/me in UW to solo question portions all those things are innovation. Due to the static meta in PVE there is very little "innovation" just continual refinement of the same builds over and over."

CoP(spike) SF(tank) etc are nice tactics (and inevitable given the very make up of different character classes with different armor and skills etc) and finding ways to exploit game AI and monster spawns or unique skill combos (e/mo er solo vale........cough DayWay) are creative but does that really take away from any skill or creativity teams (that include SF) are using to speed up and refine a SC?

"Its all the same stuff over and over, you have an SF tank aggro everything up then you spike, or you have 5,6,7,8 SF sins run around and solo a bunch of stuff, or pair up to work on stuff ingame."

Any activity tends to have tactics that are best suited to achieving the goal. I'm not sure what you are really trying to say, the tactics obviously grow out of what is the goal. Without SF would people no longer try to stall/tank/block aggro and spike? Would it not be beneficial to divide up quests (if possible) and complete objectives more quickly? Would removing SF actually change these very basic (and built into your character classes) aspects of the game?

toocooltang · Dec 16, 2009, 12:02 AM // 00:02

I'm guessing you mean "many" rather than "every" since that would be ridiculous with the 600/smite dominance of faction farming and many other clears and the 1 minute ATFH HM hero build etc. But you are correct that SF builds do use ah.....SF and in that sense they are alike.
I probably should clarify SC builds in elite areas, fow doa uw. I don't consider dungeons elite because you can hobble together any group of builds and struggle through it; you can't do this in most elite areas.

What I am saying about SF groups is the essential core to every build out there. Do you think dayway would be possible without SF? FOWsc would not be possible without the 2 permas soloing over 50% of the quests, and everyone knows that without recall on 1 of the perma tanks in DOA you probably would have to fight alot more, and thus slowing down your times.

Now the tactics used by the different secondary's vary a bit but as they are SF then any creativity or skill applied to the organizing or use of the build can be dismissed because we all know that any beginner can run any SF build in any area under any circumstances and be quick and successful . That is why it is so easy to hop a UW pug and get the chest every time in under 30min right?

The combonation of SF and compotent players with a good understanding of the game = sub 30 minute UW, 34 minute DOA, and other amazing times. The days of the average UWSC pugs taking 20 minutes are probably gone, or at least months away before the rolls get dumbed down to where you can solo them.

CoP(spike) SF(tank) etc are nice tactics (and inevitable given the very make up of different character classes with different armor and skills etc) and finding ways to exploit game AI and monster spawns or unique skill combos (e/mo er solo vale........cough DayWay) are creative but does that really take away from any skill or creativity teams (that include SF) are using to speed up and refine a SC?

No, it doesn't. Simply put the fastest, most profitable way to do anything in PVE is almost always with shadowform. My comments were meant to disprove someone else's statements that dayway was a meta change, which it is not. I've looked at the build your guild put together and it certainly is much harder to do than the previous UWSC. I can give credit when its due, and there is lot of skill, knowledge of game mechanics and creativity involved in your guys build. But if you really look at the fundamentals, it comes down to SF solo'ing/preping an area. I knew as soon as the new UW update came out it would be days MAYBE weeks before it was do-able sub 1 conset.

Any activity tends to have tactics that are best suited to achieving the goal. I'm not sure what you are really trying to say, the tactics obviously grow out of what is the goal. Without SF would people no longer try to stall/tank/block aggro and spike? Would it not be beneficial to divide up quests (if possible) and complete objectives more quickly? Would removing SF actually change these very basic (and built into your character classes) aspects of the game

I am trying to say we haven't seen a major update in PVE that really shakes up the game. I am personally quite bored of the game, because its the same skills, builds, tactics over and over(granted there have been changes, but fundamentally its the same). There will be very little new content in game going forward, so at least give us the challenge of coming up with some new ways to do things because the old ones don't work

Without SF, successfully spliting becomes much much harder. It also becomes much harder to complete speed clears, for the simple reason you will have to fight much more stuff to complete the same content. Anyways you had some good points and I certainly enjoy discussing things as an adult, which I think we can agree on rarely happens on guru. Cheers

Mustache Mayhem · Dec 16, 2009, 12:32 AM // 00:32

innovate new ways to farm.. with us farmers that's all we do =] you guys are the ones crying not us.. I'm looking at the player base who actually farms

alot of the stuff I've read by the whiners in this thread.. they so obviously haven't even tried sf or they run one character as a main and refuse to run anything else.. pretty obvious

there's other ways to do things as mentioned.. but you guys are just whining to bring everyone down to your level of play by making it seem like- that's the way everyone should play- slow and elite dungeons should take hours..

kvndoom · Dec 16, 2009, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kate Monster

Oh..and good luck to the survivors, you guys will especially need it.

I got Legendary Survivor on my Assassin without SF and without doing Kilroy 50 million times. You just need a scythe, some XP scrolls, a bunch of cupcakes, and the patience to do the same run over and over and over (with the understanding that you will make zero gold), and you can get almost 100k experience an hour, if you know where to look.

mrvrod · Dec 16, 2009, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

I got Legendary Survivor on my Assassin without SF and without doing Kilroy 50 million times. You just need a scythe, some XP scrolls, a bunch of cupcakes, and the patience to do the same run over and over and over (with the understanding that you will make zero gold), and you can get almost 100k experience an hour, if you know where to look.

So basically you cheated. You use an IWin button for your legendary survivor. You didn't play throught the missions and quests linearly, like the game was designed, you used buffs and clears to get a title you didn't earn!

Same argument, different use. Now do you people see how ridiculous your argument is? Probably not...

ThomOfDeath · Dec 16, 2009, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

So basically you cheated. You use an IWin button for your legendary survivor. You didn't play throught the missions and quests linearly, like the game was designed, you used buffs and clears to get a title you didn't earn!

Same argument, different use. Now do you people see how ridiculous your argument is? Probably not...

He cheated? Lol. He just used the stuff the game offered. If you call THAT cheating, then you could call SF ubercheat for running through all kind of mobs without dieing.

UnChosen · Dec 16, 2009, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThomOfDeath

He cheated? Lol. He just used the stuff the game offered. If you call THAT cheating, then you could call SF ubercheat for running through all kind of mobs without dieing.

His post was sarcasm....

BlackSephir · Dec 16, 2009, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kate Monster

The problem is not the skill, nor laziness. It is CHOICE and use of skill bar. If someone wants to do something faster or easier, why shouldn't they. No one is stopping anyone from doing it the old fashioned way.

Hey, that totally doesn't sound like a retarded defence for every bugged, overpowered or any other skill that was bad for the game.
Get a clue.

FyrFytr998 · Dec 16, 2009, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

So basically you cheated. You use an IWin button for your legendary survivor. You didn't play throught the missions and quests linearly, like the game was designed, you used buffs and clears to get a title you didn't earn!

Same argument, different use. Now do you people see how ridiculous your argument is? Probably not...

Exactly. Now we need to look into nerfing consumables and scythes ability to target more than one enemy, because it's too imbalanced.

The ability to play through GW, the way I wanted to play through it, was one of the attracting aspects of the game when I came over from Elder Scrolls. I mean if GW is supposed to be played in a linear fashion without substitution. Then they should nerf all characters who are Perma Pre's and make them go to Post Sear. I mean that was the way it is intended to be played right? How fair is it to the poor Charr and Scales that have to fight a level 20 toon, lol?

toocooltang · Dec 16, 2009, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustache Mayhem

i

there's other ways to do things as mentioned.. but you guys are just whining to bring everyone down to your level of play by making it seem like- that's the way everyone should play- slow and elite dungeons should take hours..

I was going to write some big long response to this but then I realized before SF you probably ran carebear, and before that you probably didnt do anything "elite" I would recommened learning other skills outside of shadowform, sliver armor and PVE skills

Dzjudz · Dec 16, 2009, 04:15 PM // 16:15

First post in this thread was almost a month ago. I don't think we'll see any skill update until at least half January. SF nerf? I'll have to see it before I believe it. /thread.

Axeman002 · Dec 16, 2009, 04:48 PM // 16:48

tell you what...tell you what..why don't...anet...remove runes and insignia's then evvvveryone will be the same there will be no OP SF for these 2 year olds to cry over...there will be no ability to perma...and everything will go back to taking 4 hours to clear....then after a month bring them back, just to show how slow and boring balanced gameplay is.

Grj · Dec 16, 2009, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axeman002

tell you what...tell you what..why don't...anet...remove runes and insignia's then evvvveryone will be the same there will be no OP SF for these 2 year olds to cry over...there will be no ability to perma...and everything will go back to taking 4 hours to clear....then after a month bring them back, just to show how slow and boring balanced gameplay is.

So running a skillbar with bar a few exceptions has no counter isn't boring?

In fact why bother having to refresh SF why not have it on the first use last for the duration of the time in which a player in a zone?

Oh and while we're at it i find it boring having to fight tedious ememys for more then two seconds so can we have a skill that instantly kills groups of monsters plz?

Sarcasm aside, where are the threads asking for the rewards and/or the time taken to be reduced to complete these areas if its such a problem? I guess people are willing to ignore those issues when they have a easymode/i win button to confort them huh

mrvrod · Dec 16, 2009, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grj

Sarcasm aside, where are the threads asking for the rewards and/or the time taken to be reduced to complete these areas if its such a problem? I guess people are willing to ignore those issues when they have a easymode/i win button to confort them huh

If you don't already have one, roll a sin, make it a perma, and roll through all the content in NM, then in HM solo. When you can actually do that, then you can call it an iWin button.

I actually lvled up my sin, and tried out SF over the last couple days, just to see if it was as uber powerful as everyone says. I left Doomlore and stood in front of the Charr group with the flameshielders and kept SF up with no damage to me at all. I thought "hmmm, maybe they have a point", then the Charr Seekers got within aggro range...death. Really great iWin button there!

Every area in GW has specific monsters with specific skills. If you read up on the area, you can create a solo or team build that will make that area easy. Every skill in the game, even SF, has it's counters, making it impossible to have any one build be an iWin for the entire game.

If the perception that the entire game became a cake-walk is the problem you have with SF then I have your solution. Completely random monsters. This way there is NO way to make the perfect build to own an area. Want to reward 8 man, balanced PuG's? Random monsters.

Fay Vert · Dec 16, 2009, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Those few areas which have counters to the perma are why people quote 90% soloable rather than 100%

I love solo farming, but there are few areas that you can do that, and you need manyu builds. Broken Form allows you to do it for most of the game with just one iWin button.

mrvrod · Dec 16, 2009, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

Those few areas which have counters to the perma are why people quote 90% soloable rather than 100%

I love solo farming, but there are few areas that you can do that, and you need manyu builds. Broken Form allows you to do it for most of the game with just one iWin button.

That makes no sense. With the skill unlock packs and tomes you can put together any build whatsoever in a matter of seconds. So you don't like one iWin over another? That's your argument?

And you can easily farm any area in the game with either a solo build or a gimmick hero/team build.

The Drunkard · Dec 16, 2009, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

I actually lvled up my sin, and tried out SF over the last couple days, just to see if it was as uber powerful as everyone says. I left Doomlore and stood in front of the Charr group with the flameshielders and kept SF up with no damage to me at all. I thought "hmmm, maybe they have a point", then the Charr Seekers got within aggro range...death. Really great iWin button there!

Every area in GW has specific monsters with specific skills. If you read up on the area, you can create a solo or team build that will make that area easy. Every skill in the game, even SF, has it's counters, making it impossible to have any one build be an iWin for the entire game.

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Category:A...farming_builds

Check out the sin section, then read up on all of the areas it can farm. Just because you can't play a permasin doesn't mean others can't. If you want my opinion you can read the rest of the thread- I'm tired of responding to the same arguments.

Tenebrae · Dec 16, 2009, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

That makes no sense. With the skill unlock packs and tomes you can put together any build whatsoever in a matter of seconds. So you don't like one iWin over another? That's your argument?

And you can easily farm any area in the game with either a solo build or a gimmick hero/team build.

You didnt understand a word she said.